RT @ppppolls: Only 41% of moderate voters nationally think there’s a place for them in the GOP: http://tinyurl.com/27454pf
RT @ppppolls: Only 41% of moderate voters nationally think there’s a place for them in the GOP: http://tinyurl.com/27454pf
Many Leftwingers identify themselves as moderate. I believe our host is an example of this.
An interesting follow up would be how many moderates are members of the Tea Party precisely becaue they feel unwelcome in the Republican Party.
Many wing nuts identify themselves as moderate, gahrie seems to be an example of this.
Hey look I can do it too gahrie. Brendan is a moderate, you are off the deep end.
I have never ever identified myself as a moderate. In fact I halfway regard political moderation as a vice. I have always called myself a conservative. And while I no longer consider myself a republican, I am quite openly anti-Democrat.
I have no problem with Brendan being leftwing. My only problem is people who are on the Left, especially when compared to the majority of the American people, insist that they are moderate.
gahrie – they insist that they are liberal, too, while their opponents are fascist – even as theyliberally and physically chase opponent speakers off stages and out of meetings to prevent them being heard …
Al, what does that even mean? Seriously, you two have no clue where the political middle of this country is do you? I’m you guy are seriously somewhere in la la land and I have no idea what you took in college to get there, but damn is must of been some serious stuff.
Seriously, you two have no clue where the political middle of this country is do you?
Do you? All reputable pollsters acknowledge that the country is at the center-right, and leaning far right this election season.
The complete lack of how terms are being defined aside. Your statement is still B.S.
dcl #7 – try re-reading #4 – and you will find a fairly simple classic definition of a standard fascist tactic – preventing one’s opponents words/position s from being spoken/heard …
Alasdair and gahrie should start their own blog. I would read it.
Al, you should know fascism.
I actually have one…I don’t post on it much because I send most of my blogging time over here…..
two even……
http://gahrie.blogspot.com/
http://garykirby.blogspot.com/
Facism shares far more in common with the neo-cons than it ever did with liberals. Nice try though.
Facism shares far more in common with the neo-cons than it ever did with liberals. Nice try though.
Absolutely batshit crazy.
First of all, fascism is an ideology of the left.
Secondly, according to the Left, neocons are conservatives who are usually Jewish and are hawks who promote Israels interests.
gahrie, you are not entitled to your own facts, however much you may wish it to be so. Fascism is and always has been a ideology of the Right. I fear you may bee watching too much Glen Beck. Pleas turn off your TV and read a book.
Hmmm … National Socialism … that well-known far-right political philosophy … “When Hitler joined and took control of the German Worker’s Party in 1920, …” – after all, Workers’ Parties are just hotbeds of conservative thinking, are they not …
The Peronistas in Argentina – another classic right-wing worker’s movement, is that what you are trying to tell us ?
dcl #14 – just because folk/someone/lectures told you that “Fascism is and always has been a ideology of the Right.” doesn’t make it so …
Fascism is a totalitarian/authoritarian philosophy generally, which is antithetical to the rights of individuals – and the rights of individuals versus The State is fundamentally core to right-wing/conservative philosophies …
Socialism, on the other hand, including National Socialism, has as its fundamental core that The State or The Party is more important than the rights of the individual …
Most of us will freely admit that, at their extremes, both right-wing and left-wing politics tend towards extremes of authoritarianism and totalitarianism – they basically meet in the middle again, at the far extreme from moderate/liberty/centrism … it’s all part of the Circle of Life, dontcha know …
Now, before various armies of straw-folk are slaughtered, what can you corroborate as incorrect in what I have said, above, in this comment ?
I know (based upon what you type) that you disagree with most of it – what I am asking is “On what rational/facts/history-based basis do you disagree with any of it ?” …
Since when has the Right in this country been about individual rights? The only right the Right seems to care about is owning a gun. I can’t identify a single other right they are actually interested in. Given the Right is totally against the ACLU QED you do not give a shit about personal liberty.
Your entire argument is basically bullshit supporting your bullshit, myopic world view. I really don’t see there as any point in saying more. There is nothing I can say that will convince you and likewise, there is nothing you can say to convince me of your crazy notions, though you have convinced me of your lunacy. Next I expect you to tell me that the Holocaust never happened.
The only thing you said the actually was accurate is that politics tends to be more of a circle than a line. But the Nazi movement was a pro business fascist movement extreme right the Communists in Russia were extreme left. And up to a point, yes, they are quite similar. But that doesn’t some how magically make the Nazis a leftist movement.
You continue to be a moron Alasdair. So a groups ideology and policies can be derived solely from it’s name? That means that North Korea must truly be the paragon of virtue since the have the word Democratic in their official name. Are you telling me that Kim Jong Il has been freely and openly elected that many times in a row, just because “democratic” in the name of the country?
I assume then that when dcl and I run for office under the banner of the “American party from freedom, patriotism, small town values, and conservative fiscal policy” you’ll whole heartedly support us no matter what our ACTUAL policies are right? I mean that is EXACTLY the policy you are advocating.
1) It is simply an established fact that the NAZIs were a leftwing party. It is also true that the American Left spent the whole decade of the 1930’s lionizing the fascists in both Germany and Italy. The American Left has spent the last 70 years trying to obscure these facts and transform fascism into a party of the right.
2) The NAZIs were NOT pro business. They nationalize much of Germany’s business and industry, and highly regulated the rest. (now who does that sound like?)
3) Conservatives believe in individual rights and responsibilities, liberals believe in group rights and responsibilities. That is at the very heart of nearly every disagreement between the two parties.
4) The ACLU is a tool of the left. The ACLU is highly selective about which rights and defendants they chose to support.
5) The NAZIs were not leftwing because of their name, but because of thier origins, policies and actions.
dcl #17 – relaise that these are generalisations – and that there are exceptions, on both sides, to any of these …
Conservatives (the Right) support Freedom of Speech … Progressives/Projectives (the Left), not so much, unless it is speech supporting Leftist causes … (can you say “PC” or “Speech Codes” ? I knew you could) …
Conservatives support an individual’s right to self-defense … Progressives/Projectives oppose an individual’s right to self-defense and support the State/govenrmental bodies as the only legal entities which can defend the individual … the whole Gun Control sham is a classic example of this …
Conservatives believe that an individual is entitled to the enjoyment of the fruits of his own labour … Progressives/Projectives believe in redistribution of the fruits of labour from those who laboured to gain ’em to those who don’t labour …
Conservatives support an individual’s right to freedom of religion … Progressives/Projectives support freedom from religion …
Ironically, David K #18 accurately answers your point about the ACLU … (even if he did mean it as a straw-folk slaughter aimed at me) …
Of course, this may all be too nuanced for our d-listers …
gahrie – I left a comment on Grumbles and Groans – it needs to pass through moderation, it seems …
kcatnd – go check out gahrie’s blog – we can see if we can liven it up a bit … (grin) …
@gahrie. That you continue to claim the Nazi’s were left wing shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no clue. Do some research that doesn’t involve Fox news and then come back,until then you are dismissed.
David K: acting like a four year old doesn’t change history.
@Alasdair
Free speech? You are kidding right? Ever heard of McCarthyism? That was conservativism at it’s “finest”. Conservatives were also the ones who locked up MLK and opposed the civil rights movement.
Fruits of his labor? More right wing bullshit. Red States take in more federal Tax revenue than they generate. E blue states have been subsidizing the red states for decades. Beyond that conservatives have this funny belief that they earn money in a vacuum and owe nothing to the society around them that enables them to make money at all.
When, pray tell was the last time you drove to work on a rode you paid for on your own? Received electricity you paid the full cost for? Were protected by polic, fire and the military that you paid for solely out of your own pocket?
There is a cost of living any society and only the greediest of conservatives seem to think they deserve all the benefits without any cost. Redistribution of wealth? Try fairness. The rich pay less in taxes than wealth they control. Pay rate for CEOs has far outpaced that of the workers who keep them in business.
Enough with the bullshit about “fruits of their labor”.
Freedom of religion? So long as you are an evangelical Christian maybe. How many conservatives are standing up for the freeedom of Imam Rauf? How many of you are decrying Glen Beck et al’s shameful portrayal of peaceful American Muslims as associated with terrorists. How many of you have told Sarah Palin and the jokers at Faux News that we are NOT a Christian nation?
Don’t even try and pass of this freedom of religion crap. Nothing would make you and gahrie happier than seeing every Muslim in this country deported yesterday.
As for the ACLU. First their record of defending the first amendment speaks for itself. Second YOU are the one who used the word socialism in a name as proof that the group was socialist. Calling you out on it by pointing out the obvious flaw in your logic is not a straw man at all unless by straw man you mean “argument I can’t refute so I’ll claim it’s something else”
You make me sick. The lies, the bullshit, the twisted words and cowardly way you run and hide when your arguments are ripped to shreds. This blog and this country would be far better off without extremist idealogues like you in it. It’s a good thing we have groups like the ACLU who defend the first amendment because as repugnant as the lies that spew from your mouth are, fortunately we still live in a country where you get to say them. If that’s the price to pay for freedom so be it, I’ll take it. But I pray that I never see the day where someone like you sin power. That would be a dark day indeed.
And with that I am done with this thread. Enjoy or shipping Glenn Beck in my absence.
So Conservatives/the Right arrested MLK … like ummm the Democrat authorities in Alabama ? Or the Democrat authorities in Georgia ? Or do you mean that well-known right-with Attorney General Robert Kennedy authorising wiretaps on MLK ? Are *those* the Conservatives locking up MLK ?
Red State/Blue State outgoing to federal versus incoming from federal – what is your source for this belief ? I am highly sceptical that Texas gets more money from the Feds than it sends to the Feds … so where is the URL corroborating your assertion ?
QUIT PROJECTING ! “YOU are the one who used the word socialism in a name as proof that the group was socialist. “ … ain’t what I said … I mentioned socialist parties – which were also fascist – and showed that they were “Workers’ Parties”, and, as such, hardly right-wing … as gahrie points out (my paraphrasing) “Socialism *is* as Socialism *does* !” … The Nazis weren’t Socialist because they called themselves that – they were socialist because they did socialist things …
As far as I know, the freedom of Imam Rauf has yet to be constrained … why would I (or any other rational individual) champion the freedom of someone who can speak freely, can travel freely, can worship freely ?
You keep trying to paint me as *you*, David … it doesn’t work, beacause *I* don’t believe in banning people I don’t like … I don’t believe in deporting people I don’t like … I don’t believe in silencing people I don’t like … I even beliegve that *you* have just as much right to express your opinions on Fox News or elsewhere as does Sarah Palin – something *you* and your ilk would deny to Sarah Palin …
Then there is your economic expertise … “The rich pay less in taxes than wealth they control. “ … utter davidkian inanity … *you* pay less in taxes than the wealth you control … so what ? What is bad about anyone paying less in taxes than the wealth they control ?
I do have to ask …
Why would anyone want to be “shipping Glenn Beck “ ???
By the way..history has shown that McCarthy was right…our government was infiltrated by Soviet spies and Communists.